Ep. 92 - Learn More About the Psychology Graduate Programs

In Episode 92 of the CSUSB Advising Podcast, Matt Markin chats with Dr. Ken Shultz, department chair of Psychology! Dr. Shultz discusses graduate programs within Psychology, including the M.A. in Psychological Science, M.S. in Industrial/Organizational, and M.S. in Clinical/Counseling. Learn about the differences between these programs, the admissions process, career options, and more!

Check out Psychology Graduate Programs website!

Subscribe to the CSUSB Advising Podcast on Apple, Spotify, and more!

Follow us on social media:

Instagram - @csusbadvising
Tik Tok - @csusbadvising
YouTube - @csusbadvising

https://csusbadvising.buzzsprout.com/

Transcript

Matt Markin  
Hello and welcome back to the CSUSB Advising Podcast. This is Matt Markin from the ASUA academic advising office, and on today's episode, we're learning more about the master's degrees offered through CSUSB psychology department. So that being the MA in Psychological Science, the MS in clinical Counseling Psychology, and the MS in industrial organizational psychology. And to help us learn more about and unpack these programs, let's welcome DDr. Ken Shultz, department chair of psychology. Dr. Shultz, welcome.

Dr. Ken Shultz  
Well, thank you, Matthew. I'm very much looking forward to sharing my experiences. I'm going into year 33 here at Cal State San Bernardino, so I've been here a long time. I've seen the evolution of these programs, and looking forward to sharing now, as the department chair, what my experience has been with the three programs. 

Matt Markin  
So you have a lot of experience being at CSUSB, and maybe that kind of goes into the first question. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background in higher ed?

Dr. Ken Shultz  
Yeah, obviously I was also a undergraduate psychology major, although I was initially interested in biological psychology, but then I realized the part of biological I was interested in was environmental science and macro and not cell biology and neurons. So then I thought, well, maybe I'll do something apply. You know, I was first generation student. Thought, I want to earn my degree, go out and work. But quickly realized clinical psychology wasn't my path. So I actually found stumbled on to the area of industrial and organizational psychology. So I started researching different programs ended up going on for my PhD. Never anticipating becoming a professor. I thought for sure, even with a PhD, I'd go, because at that time, back in the 1980s about half of PhD IO psychologists would go into industry and half into academics. I did work in the applied setting for several years, but ultimately decided academia was a better fit for me. Became a professor, and here we are, 33 years later.

Matt Markin  
Aand I guess, you know, moving into talking about the psychology department and and the different masters programs, I guess, generally speaking, how would you describe each of your graduate programs you have?

Dr. Ken Shultz  
Yeah, they they are definitely three very distinct programs. The Master of Arts in Psychological Science really prepares you to go on to a PhD program in almost any area of psychology, we've had people go in to neuroscience, cognitive, social, developmental, clinical, even Industrial Organizational. Then our two other programs, the MS programs, MS and clinical counseling and MS and Industrial Organizational are really preparing people for more direct career fields. So the Masters in clinical counseling is preparing students to take the marriage and family therapy license so they become a licensed therapist, and many of those graduates are now independent consultants or work for large healthcare agencies such as Kaiser or inland Inland Valley Health Systems type thing. And then most of the students who go into the Masters of Science and industrial organizational psychology and going in, usually to a human resource department, either in the public sector or private sector, doing things like developing selection systems and performance appraisal systems and evaluating training for employees, those types of things. So the two Master of Science programs are definitely much more career focused, taking you in a particular career direction, whereas the Master of Arts is really a stepping stone for most students to go on to PhD program in psychology. That said we have had occasional students from the clinical counseling or IO go on to PhD programs. I'm most familiar with the IO one since I've been affiliated with three decades, but I think in three decades, we probably had less than 10 students who've ultimately gone on, whereas the vast majority of students from the psychological science program are going on to PhD programs.

Matt Markin  
You know, for students who are undergraduates, when they end up applying to the University, they fill out an application, and they submitted transcripts, and then they were told if they were admitted or not admitted to the university. So for students going and applying for, let's say, one of these master's programs, what's the admissions process or application process like?

Dr. Ken Shultz  
Yeah, again, they're pretty distinct programs, so each one's a little bit different. For example, since the psychological psych one is preparing you to go on to a PhD program, you have to have a mentor identified before you get into the program, and most likely, you're going to be working in their lab the two or three years that you're in there. And the master's program, the Master's in clinical counseling and the IO one, the units are so much higher. While some students do engage in outside research, it's really hard for them to be in someone's lab and then also do all the requirements, particularly for the clinical counseling students, since the marriage and family therapy license requires so many units to prepare them. So for the clinical counseling, obviously they're looking more holistically. You have to go through an individual interview. So yes, they're looking at GPA and those types of things and the types of courses you took, but they're also going to do an individual interview figure out, do you really want to be a therapist and why versus the IO program is mostly focused the admissions process on your GPA and then how you did in specific classes. The IO program requires a lot of statistics and research methods background. So how did you do in the statistics classes, research methods? Were you involved in any research I know, as the former program director for that master's program, one of our biggest concerns was students being able to complete their master's thesis. So if they had done an undergraduate honors thesis, we knew that they were better prepared than students who hadn't had that experience going through and doing the Honors Program and doing an honors thesis, or at least being involved in somebody's Research Lab prior to applying to the program. So each one takes a little bit different tact. I strongly encourage anybody interested in any of those three programs to talk to the program director. They can give you more targeted suggestions for what's going to make you a competitive applicant for that program. 

Matt Markin  
And we get this question too, like with certain master's programs, do I need a specific bachelor's degree as one of the requirements. Is there anything specific for any of these programs?

Dr. Ken Shultz  
So if you have a bachelor's degree in psychology, you automatically qualify for all three. If you don't, typically, you have to have intro to psych statistics and research methods. But then the IO program also recommends having an industrial psychology course, an organizational psychology course, a test and measurements course, and then the clinical counseling, I believe, also requires either personality or intro to psychotherapy as well as abnormal psychology, and even if you weren't a psych major, maybe you were a psych minor. Chances are you took an abnormal class and maybe even a personality class. So most students are pretty and particularly if you were in the minor, you definitely took Intro statistics and research methods. So if, even if you weren't a major, if you had the minor, and even without the minor, just a couple of additional classes are going to qualify you.

Matt Markin  
And kind of connect to that, you know, once, let's say a student is admitted into the program, or one of these programs, a question we get to is going to be, well, how long are these programs? You know, is it I can work at my own pace depending on class availability, or is it like a cohort model?

Dr. Ken Shultz  
Yeah, all three are definitely cohort models. The clinical counseling and the IO only accept students in the fall. The Psychological Science will occasionally take us one or two students in the spring, because it's more of that mentor model, but the vast majority of students enter in the fall, so they definitely follow through a cohort. Both the clinical counseling and the IO are very prescriptive. You get a couple of electives and that's it. But the psychological science, because it's targeted at so many different areas. If you're in the program and you're interested in neuroscience, but I'm in the program and I'm interested in social psych or cognitive psych, then obviously I want to take a different set of courses. So there's a core set of courses for the psychological science, but then they get their specialty by focusing on a particular area, all of the programs are designed to be two years because the clinical counseling has the option of a thesis or comprehensive exam, and most students do the comprehensive exam, even though it has the most number of units. A higher percentage of students finish in two years because they work their way through the units and the comprehensive exam. The thing that slows down the psychological science and the IO students is the master's thesis. So pretty much everybody completes all the coursework in two years. The question is, can they complete their thesis in two years. And for a lot of students, they end up taking an extra few months, so maybe they graduate in December instead of June, or particularly for the psychological science students, because they're going on to PhD programs, they may purposely take three years, because that gives them more time in someone's lab to get various presentations and publications and make their application to PhD programs more competitive.

Matt Markin  
And when students are in these programs, and not that you have to go through every single class, but what are types of classes or things topics that students are learning in each of these programs?

Dr. Ken Shultz  
Yeah, so for all three programs, there's a core set of classes, just like the undergraduate major, you know, statistics, research methods, and then usually they have to take either social or developmental psych. And then then it really starts to specialize after that. Again, if you're in the psychological science and you're interested in neuro psych, you're going to be taking all those neuro psych, psychopharmacology, biological psychology, all of those types of things. The clinical because they are preparing students for the marriage and family therapy. They're going to be taking a lot of, you know, psychotherapy type courses, personality courses, and then the Industrial Organizational the core classes there are talent acquisition, performance management, work motivation and leadership, organizational theory. So those core areas within Industrial Organizational Psych. So when you go to work in an organization, most likely in the human resource department, you're familiar with all of those areas. The IO program in particular is very heavily course loaded in the first year. We do that for two reasons, one, because we know you're going to be doing your thesis in the second year. But also, most students do an internship in the summer between their first and second year. So then they've got the majority of their core Industrial Organizational psych classes done, and students are a little, you know, a little leery going into their internship. Do I really know enough? And invariably, they come back at the end of the summer and said I was shocked I knew more than most people in the human resource department about this or that. So students really get, I think, reinforced for what they're learning in the first year in the IO program in particular, and I'm guessing, similarly in the clinical counseling program, because those students work in our community counseling center in the social and behavioral sciences building their first year, and then they usually go out and get their internship units to qualify for the marriage and family therapy license in their second year as well. So I'm sure, similarly, they're they're having same type of experiences.

Matt Markin  
And with this next question, you've kind of already addressed some of it, already with couple of programs being more career director career focused. But if there's anything that you want to repeat with it or add to it, what possible career areas would students or could students go into in each of these programs?

Dr. Ken Shultz  
Yeah, I mean, with, again, the MSCC, it's so targeted at preparing you for that marriage and family therapy license. So again, you could go out and you could become an independent therapist, open up your own shop, or you could work for a large you'd be part of a larger group, or be part of a healthcare system, a big provider like Kaiser Permanente for the IO, they often go a variety of different routes. Many go into the public sector. Work for places like county of Riverside City of Los Angeles, Los Angeles Unified School District, Southern California, Edison, some of the major places our students have gone. Some go in the private sector. Some go into consulting. And then again, occasionally we have students going on to PhD programs. But then again, the psychological science one is where students are almost always going on to PhD programs within their areas. And not all of them are going to become professors, but a good portion of them will, a few decide to stop at the masters level and teach at the community college. Both we've had both industrial organizational as well as psychological science students do that. In fact. Fact, several of our current, or quite a few actually, of our current, adjunct faculty, part time faculty in our department, earned their their degree in either psychological science or IO psychology in our department. 

Matt Markin  
That's good to know. Yeah, let's say a student is, you know, here's this, and they're like, Well, I've maybe narrowed it down to two of the three that I might be interested in going into and applying for, but maybe or they're on the fence of applying to one of them. Do you have any advice for that student?

Dr. Ken Shultz  
Yeah, strongly encourage them to go talk to the current program director, because they're going to have the most knowledge, particularly for the psychological science because, again, you have to have a mentor coming in. So particularly if they're not a current CSUSB student, they may not know what the options are for various mentors in the psychological science program. But that's true. You know, again, for the other two programs as well, talking to the current program director is going to give you a sense of 1am. I going to be competitive? As you might guess, the clinical counseling is by far the most competitive to get into. I think they get over 200 applicants a year, and they only take 12 students. So you can do the math pretty quickly, that's well below 10% of students being admitted. That's almost comparable to some doctoral programs the IO is about half of that. They get upwards of around 100 or so applicants, but then only take 12 or so students as well. So again, we're talking just over 10% which is not very much. The psychological sciences changes a lot from year to year, but still competitive to get into as well. That one, again, more important to make sure that you've identified a mentor. So talking to the program director is going to give you a sense of one of my competitive applicant, but two, is it really the best fit for you? And we've had several students who actually started in the psychological science. One didn't really know about IO psychology and ended up transferring into the IO program once they were in there. The good news was they already had some of the core classes already out of the way, so it didn't set them too far behind. Sometimes you just don't know until you start doing it and get into it.

Matt Markin  
And I guess that's a good segue into this. Next question is sometimes perception is different than reality. So do you find that sometimes there's misconceptions that a student might have about the psychology master's programs while they're applying, or even once they start in the program.

Dr. Ken Shultz  
I think the clinical students are have a fairly good focus, because they know what they have a sense, at least, what it means to be a therapist and provide therapy. I mean, they may get into the first year of the program and start doing therapy in the clinical Counseling Center and decide, whoops, this isn't for me. Similarly, again, I was program director for the master's program in IO for years, and invariably, we would get one or two students a year who hadn't taken an undergraduate IO class. So they thought they knew what IO was, and then they got in there and then realized, no, it wasn't what they thought it was going to be, which is good. I mean, I'd hate to see him stay two or three years and then leave so they figure it out after one we used to be one quarter, now one semester, and move on to a program that's it's going to be a better fit for them. I always tell students the best bad advice I ever received was that you can't do anything with a master's in IO, and that's definitely not the case for me. It was the best bad advice, because I didn't think I wanted to be a professor way back then, and if I had gone on and earned a master's in IO and worked in an organization I probably would have never become a professor, and would have never had the career that I've had so so for me, it was definitely the best bad advice I ever received. But it's become clear over the decades for me as well, seeing how well our students do, whether they're in the psychological science program going on to PhD programs, or whether they're in the clinical program earning their MFT license, or if they're in the IO program, and the joke being that the students get out and they earn more money right away than the faculty do being successful in their career. Scary part now is that I'm actually have some students from the early 90s who are starting to retire before I even retire. I think that that's the sign that I should start thinking about retirement might be in my near future.

Matt Markin  
And last question is, within your within your department, are. There any resources that are offered to graduate students?

Dr. Ken Shultz  
Yeah, we have a couple one second year students can be lab instructors for our upper division research methods class like 3311 so anybody listening to this who took 3311 most likely your lab instructor was a graduate student in one of the three masters program. Most likely the psychological science, because they have the most ability, and it's also really good for them because they think they want to become professors, and it gives them an opportunity to do that. So unfortunately, it doesn't pay as much as what a part time faculty makes, but it is a chance to get some funding and get that experience, which is probably even more valuable. Many of our faculty also have federal grants where they can pay for research assistant time, so some of our students are funded, again, most likely to be the psychological science students who are working directly with a faculty member, but occasionally the IO students or the clinical students, because we have other centers on campus, we have a new center for effective organizational solutions for the IO students. We have the community counseling center down there on the first floor. And as I mentioned in the IO program, most students do an internship between first year and second year. And when I started 30 years ago, the majority of them were unpaid, and they just got course credit. Now, the majority of them are paid, many paying, sometimes 25 or $30 an hour if they're with a big employer. So a chance to make some opportunities. And often, what happens with the IO students is they do such a great job that they ask them to stay on part time in their second year. So the good news is they make a little money. The bad news is it could slow them down a little bit in terms of progress towards their degree. But again, similar to the clinical students working in the counseling center, it gives them a sense of, Is this for me? I think it really does that for the IO students as well, they get a chance to work with an employer, do those types of things. Some of them do it in the public sector, and think, oh, public sector is not for me. I'd rather be in the private sector. My personal experience was I did two internships in the private sector, Unisys Computer Corporation and United Airlines in Chicago, and I realized the public sector was actually a better fit for me. So I worked in the city of Los Angeles for three years, and then realized, actually, I think academia would be the ultimate best fit for me, and luck, probably a position opened up just as I was finishing my PhD.

Matt Markin  
If anything, there's, you know, various opportunities you can pivot and change and go a different route. Lot of great information that that you provided today, Dr. Shultz, with the various master's programs within the Psychology Department. Great hearing about your experience as well. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today. 

Dr. Ken Shultz  
Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me on.